Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby BrightYoungMind » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:53 pm

African wrote:pottoman,

This is Truth's hint. Not yours. He submitted the answer for peer review and we should get it next week.



Well I’m cool with pottoman’s guess – silence is golden – love it !

What makes you so sure the answer begins with G anyway ?

And I don’t believe Mr Truth is being truthful by claiming to be a “scientist who only considers facts”.

Most scientists I know are happy to consider hypotheses for which they then search for supporting evidence.

Facts – what are facts ? No scientist talks about facts.

Peer review ?

Beer review more like, Truth spends too much time down the pub !
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:33 pm

Would it be constructive to suggest that if Prof Lotz has set up a bank account to gather some external funds for this investigation that it be published here or in the media? There have been commentators on the newspaper forums and on facebook that have pledged donations. Some may want to contribute anonymously. Just a thought.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:43 am

Hi BYM,

What nerve have I touched here? I never addressed you .... but you get upset?

We all have our different ways of contributing and getting to answers - you share yours, please allow me to share mine .............

Oh, and you will be surprised at what a bit of beer review can unearth.......
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby African » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:53 am

Interested2 wrote:Would it be constructive to suggest that if Prof Lotz has set up a bank account to gather some external funds for this investigation that it be published here or in the media? There have been commentators on the newspaper forums and on facebook that have pledged donations. Some may want to contribute anonymously. Just a thought.
Would it be constructive to suggest that if Prof Lotz has set up a bank account to gather some external funds for this investigation that it be published here or in the media? There have been commentators on the newspaper forums and on facebook that have pledged donations. Some may want to contribute anonymously. Just a thought.


Interested2, thank you for sharing this thought and making this suggestion. Here in South Africa there is tremendous support with regard to the investigation, and I am certain that there are a number of people that will be willing to show their support in a more tangible way other than just speculating and blogging.

If it is possible to obtain this information and if Prof Lotz is willing to have this information published, I would appreciate it if a member having access to this information can post the details here.

Kind Regards,
African
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:57 pm

Reading one of Tuesday's articles by Murray Williams again, I was intrigued by the following sentence:

It was at Lotz’s apartment at Welgevonden estate, on the R44 towards Paarl, that she was murdered between 4pm and 6pm on the afternoon of March 16, 2005.


How was this window period for the time of death determined? I trust that Piet Byleveld has looked at this, but I would appreciate if someone could help me out. Unless it has already been discussed on here? (Please forgive me, but I'm not inclined to trawl through 30-odd pages right now to look.)
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:16 am

The time window is not really certain. We know that she was seen alive at 16:00 and that she did not respond to her phone at approx 20:00. There are a number of things that could point to a time of death well before 20:00, but most of it would be speculation.

The post mortem was done only two days later so it was not possible to determine a more accurate time of death.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:05 am

OK, so the reporter got that part wrong. Thanks for clearing that up for us 'Truth'.

I am still hoping that 'pottoman' would give us some insights as to who his prime suspect might be, but failing that, even just an update about toilet paper sales could be enlightening.

What news from say, the Bloemfontein stores?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby African » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:52 pm

Hi pottoman, Pat, Louis, Truth, Interested2, etc
There is interest from some of my friends with regard to the account details for contributions with regard to contributing to the investigation. It will be immaterial compared to the cost. Most people do not have a lot of money to contribute - but they want to pledge their support - they want to know that they tried to make a difference.
Any feedback from someone close to Prof Jan Lotz?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby brandondee » Fri May 04, 2012 2:48 pm

Hi all,

My first post to this forum. Let me state at the outset that I am an average South African citizen with no training, experience on forensics or history in the South African criminal or judiciary system. My interest in this case was peaked due to the extraordinary circumstances of Inge's death, followed throughout the trial and I was ultimately dumbfounded at the reality that evidence was fabricated and that an innocent man could have spent life in jail. I think what made this case hit close to home was the fact that the accused was a white male of my age, came of a good, conservative upbringing, good quality education, working for one of the biggest known private financial institutes in South Africa, in a building that I have myself visited for business meetings on previous occasions. Simply put, it brought home the reality that something like this could (have) easily happened to someone like me or in my immediate circle of friends. One day you're living a normal middle-class life in a fairly well-off suburb with a stable friendship circle and tomorrow you are accused of murder. I cannot imagine what effect this must have had on Fred and I commend him for staying strong psychologically throughout the trial and consequent trials and, I believe now moving on with his life in having gotten married to a new love.

Antony Altbeker's book, Fruit of a Poisoned tree brought with it an immense amount of information around the circumstances surrounding Inge's murderer and, put into context for a layman such as myself the enormity and complexity such a case involves in order to prosecute someone successfully. As with a number of South Africans I presume, the Inge Lotz story has become one of an almost obsessive hobby. There are just too many questions unanswered and due to Lotz' murder never having been found, the case today is still as real as it was 7 years ago, if not more so... Purely because of the activity I have seen over the past couple of weeks picking up.Let me also state at this point that I am not a journalist, was not afforded the opportunity to sit though the trial as it occurred, have not interviewed anyone in my own capacity or made any contact with the victim's family or that of the original accused. By this then, I'm purely an avid follower of this case and my enthusiasm, recently re-sparked by Piet Byleveld and Jan Lotz, Inge's father again pleading to the public for support in bringing to light the real killer. I am also not researching this case due to any monetary reward offered by Jan Lotz as I believe in the general goodness of mankind. He's already lost a daughter, there should be no reason for the man to suffer any further financial loss over and above the psychological trauma endured by his family. My support then, as little as it maybe is to help, wherever I can to spread the message and hopefully engage in intelligent conversation around the circumstances which could have contributed to a fairly average South African family having been ripped apart like this.

Through trawling the web for the very first media reports of the murder, and consequent reports thereafter (which contain multiple versions, and inevitably) many inconsistencies, hoping that somewhere something would "jump out" that could point in a specific direction, I have not seen any of the evidence first-hand (apart from the images and descriptions posted through Altbeker's book), my study then is purely based on media reports, which as we all know are to be extensively inaccurate at best, and the trial transcripts which we also know excluded evidence presented to the investigators and prosecutors which were never presented in court. In other words, my access to information has been limited to that which is only available for public compensation. It is in trawling the web that I came across this forum which has kept me busy for the last couple of hours in reading the various contributed posts - firstly, thank you for a most informative message board - the content and quality is held in high regard, and it's clear that the contributors here all have an honorable desire to see this case closed and justice served. Whilst I have followed the case and know the details of the key players, I trust that the lack of my experience and limited knowledge around the subject of murder investigation will this be taken in this context in any future replies.

My thoughts on the case? Fred is innocent, as has already been proved by his acquittal and the evidence relating thereto. There is however a couple of things which just don't 'click' it hasn't from the start, and continues to do so. It's as if every possible angle in itself, had a hole in. In Fred's side, all checked out with the exception of any reliable witness being able to actually, uncategorically confirm that they could remember him at the presentation on the meeting that was held on the afternoon of Inge's murder. Also, the computer records found on his computer about committing the perfect murder...what was that all about, it was never explained away?

What about Carolus? How could he have known the details he did? Why confess to a murder? Even if he was the fall-guy, why has nothing come of it since then, 7 years later...even now that Mr. Lotz has offered a R1m reward for any information which will lead to the real murderer being exposed. Surely that amount should have exceeded whatever he may have been paid to be the fall-guy?

Through everything, my mind keeps coming back to two people. Marius Botha and Wimpie Boshoff, both who had a rather unusual relationship/connection with Inge. Let's start with Marius who was allegedly deeply in love with Inge Lotz from their 1st year in varsity, but who consequently started dating someone else the following year. Van Der Vyfer met Inge through the friendship he had with Marius Botha, which, by 2005 was described as best-friends and flatmates. It was also quoted that Marius told Inge shortly after she started dating Van Der Vyfer that from thereon, their friendship could never be the same. That's a rather strange thing to say to a friend if you weren't dating, or if someone was still emotionally attached to part of the relationship). Furthermore, two things stand out for me around this 1. contrary to the way the Van der Vyfer and Botha living arrangements were portrayed, they only moved in together a month before the murder. Co-incidental perhaps... Or maybe not so, considering that they both also started working for Old Mutual around the same time, Botha in November 2004 and Van Der Vyfer in January 2005. At this stage, it begs the question, if they worked at the same place, is it possible that the CCTV footage was being watched for the wrong guy? What exactly was Marius Botha doing during the afternoon hours when Inge's murder took place? If they worked at the same building, I would imagine they both held full-time positions and there should be no reason why any employee should be out of the office for an extended period of time in the afternoon, unless he was In a sales type position which required plenty of time out of the office. I cannot recall ever reading in any of the statements that Marius Botha was questioned about his whereabouts on that afternoon, less so confirmation thereof.

The second, is friend Wimpie Boshoff who by all indications was the last person who saw her alive. The nature of his friendship with Inge Lotz was described as her best friend and confidant. He certainly seemed to have known about all her past relationships, who had "secret" crushes on her and, certainly her current one on the day of her murder as she shared with him that she believed it was over between her and Fred. According to his version in court, he testified that he convinced her to stay with Van Der Vyfer. Nothing has ever been said about whether there ever was a love interest from Wimpie's side, and if you ask me, it is extremely rare to have two people of the opposite sex, at their age, to have such an open friendship, without there being a love interest from one or the other (usually, from the male's side) in the hope that the supporting role the one-side is playing will eventually flourish into something more when everything else fails to work out. The other possibility of course is that he may have been homosexual (and please, i have no factual basis to make such an assumption) and thus, no threat to Inge or any of her lovers.

Assume however, for one second, this version is only a half-truth. They meet up for coffee that afternoon, she tells him the relationship is over, Wimpie, knowing that he has waited a long time to be with her decides to declare his love for her.

There has also been mention that he has on numerous occasions visited her at her home, which tells me he either had a key, or could frequently enter the complex and she would let him in without hesitation. It may be on this afternoon that they finish off coffee and either she 1. Invites him to go watch a DVD with her for the afternoon (as they may have done on numerous occasions before) or 2. They say goodbye but he decides to pop by in any case after she gets home. Here, she invites him in and he proclaims his undying love for her. She responds that she's in love with Fred, and in a moment of rage and disappointment, believing that he has through all the years shown her his support and love, knocks her out in rageband the murder becomes one of passion.... "if I can't have you, no one else on this earth will".

Wimple, is the last person Inge spoke to.

Again, what was his movements after they left the coffee shop? Can anyone confirm his whereabouts?

Fred also mentioned in trial when first questioned how he came to hear about Inge's *murder* to which he responded he couldn't quite recall whether it was Marius (most likely), Wimpie (say what) or Christo (possible). The question to be posed is when did Wimpie first hear of her murder? By all accounts, it should have been much much later than the other two as neither of them really knew about Wimpie's session with Inge earlier that afternoon.

And should a remote possibility exist, would it have been possible for the two to have worked together?

What I also find strange is that in any normal friendship circle, if I was having an "affair" or cheating, there surely should have been some record of such communication between those two parties on the days leading up to her murder. I don't think these things were probed thoroughly enough. Once again, this is personal suspicions and assumptions without fact and should in no way intend to falsely accuse any of the people described here,

I would love to hear your thoughts while I eagerly await any new developments on this case. Piet, I have no doubt that you will crack this.

Regards
Brandon
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Sat May 05, 2012 7:47 am

Hi Brandon,

It is refreshing to see such an opjective opinion about what you see in the media. The questions you ask are certainly very valid, in particular the one's relating to alibi, as both parties you refer to had no alibi for at least a major part of the estimated time window for the time of death. To my knowledge it was never investigated properly and I cannot comprehend why this is so.

Even though it is known that Wimpie visited the flat, it is not likely that he had keys. To make sense he also would have needed a remote for the complex gate, and not even Fred had that. The events around the meeting Inge had with Wimpie is quite fuzzy and I have often wondered about her having a Steers Burger so shortly after a meal with Wimpie. The meal is however something that was reported in the media and in a SMS to Fred she only states "Lekker gekuier met W", so most likely it was only a cup of coffee.

It is not very likely that a conversation immediately before the incident lead to the murder. There was very little evidence of resistance so Inge might have even been asleep and not even aware of her attacker. If you look at the testimony of Supt. Kock about the blood spatter patterns, in particular the spatter shadows, it is very likely that the murderer did not move around much during the incident. If the person went to fetch a knife from the kitchen for instance, there is a strong possiblity of stepping on to at least a few drops of blood. My theory (and it is just that, a theory) is that one weapon was used. An example of such a weapon could be the wheelbrace from an eastern designed car which had a hammer like end that is used to loosen the wheelnuts and a sharp end that is used to remove the hubcap. The sharp end can easily be used to stab someone and would be a much more suitable weapon to inflict the kind of wounds we see in this case, than a kitchen knife. You will need a very strong knife to cut through four ribs in the way it happened here. It also has a cylindrical shape which ties in with the testimony of one of the expert witnesses.

Even though it was often stated that Inge was extremely security concious, a number of things show that it might not have been necessarily the case. It is quite possible that her front door was not locked at the time of the incident. The tilers warned her about opening the door and Fred said that he found her in the bedroom when he returned to check if she was OK before he left for class. That means the door was most likely open if he had no keys.

Due to the nature of the incident, Carolus is a very unlikely suspect, even if he was paid. Just think about what you see in the movies - you never se a hitman use 25 bullets. When the job is done, it is done. There was a lot more anger involved here.

I agree with you strongly, to the degree that I feel the answers lie in the communication between the parties involved. There are a number of problems though. From the court transcripts one can see that Internet access was not reported on for most of the mobile communication evidence used during the trial. This immediately excludes communication such as Mxit. This type of evidence can hold critical clues, but it must be approached with caution. Seen in isolation it is easy to jump to conclusions that might not be correct. It is easy to make other mistakes as well. A typical mistake is for instance that it was testified that Inge had an Erikssen T65 cellphone. The IMEI number however resolves to a Samsung, which is what she had. I have many questions around the communications that took place around the time of the incident. One being the exact minute Andre Beelders reported the incident to the Stellenbosch police?

That is my five pennies for today .....
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Sat May 05, 2012 12:45 pm

Thank you for the thought provoking articles, Brandon and Truth. Without suggesting that Piet Byleveld should consult a website such as this as part of his investigation, I hope that his mind would remain open to some of the aspects mentioned here which may require further investigation. I want to address just a couple of things in your thinking that might be incorrect or unsubstantaited rumour.

Computer records on Fred's computer about committing the perfect murder: where does this come from? None of this was presented during the trial. Sounds like a malicious press rumour?

Suggestion that Carolus was paid to be the fall guy or a hitman: I've always understood his part in the story to have been one of an observer, part of a gang who went to the apartment with the intention to steal cash, a cellphone and a laptop. He was tracked down in Springbok in the Northern Cape on suspicion of cellphone theft, after some of the 'usual suspects' were shaken out by Stellenbosch police and they in turn implicated him. I agree with Truth that this murder was not the work of a hitman. There was either a lot of anger involved here... or the type and scale of violence associated with crystal meth induced rage. Altbeker paints a very disturbing picture in his book of the characters amongst whom Carolus moved. The leader of the local Americans gang, its deputy leader, a person who burned his girlfriend to death and threatened to beat his own father to death with a hammer.

I can very much understand why the suggestion that the Carolus gang is responsible for this murder is an improbable and unsatisfactory solution. It doesn't fit with the majority of commentators' views that the murder was committed by someone who was known to the victim. It doesn't fit with any of the psychological motivations that are attributed to such a suspect. It seems to be an unsatisfactory answer to the Lotzes - they have apparently commented that they don't believe it was a gang member. It will fail to provide them with the answers that they are looking for, because the culprit might not even comprehend the questions. It leaves them with an answer that says their less than security conscious daughter lived in an apartment in an unsafe part of town and her murder has to be filed under 'random and strange'. Unsatisfactory. But not impossible.

Truth, do give us some more around the Andre Beelders comment...
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby African » Sat May 05, 2012 2:19 pm

brandondee,
I do not know what game you are playing. But you know more about this case than what was published in the print or on blogs, or what you can get from smoking pot. And yet you claim to know nohting more than what was published.

Please do not lend your ears to the Grigors, dwarfs, or even worse - some womenfolk who think they are heeding to the highest calling in life and fulfilling the duty to a temple priest.

The fact that Fred van der Vyver (and forget about his managers - he is now old enough to take ownership of his own life) has not given all his support and weight to the investigation (and I pray to God that I am wrong in this regard) is nothing less than raising immense questions. This is the man that eventually testified that he wanted to marry Inge (only after being reminded by the judge that no one testified to his allibi). He moved on and married another woman - and is now as quiet as the dead - except to state in a magazine that he trust that God would bless those that prayed for him and believed in his innocence

G stands for Gutless if anyone is asking me.
Last edited by African on Sat May 05, 2012 4:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Sat May 05, 2012 3:12 pm

African, a rather emotional response I would say. Almost all semi-educated South Africans, and especially Capetonians, through dinner party conversation or otherwise, by now know more about this case than what was written in the media. In stead becoming personal, why don't you address factual aspects of Brandon's post that you agree or diasgree with?

How did Brandon's comments in any way relate to the (un)willingness of any parties to get involved in Byleveld's investigation?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby African » Sat May 05, 2012 4:08 pm

Interested2,
My personal (Afrikaans and semi-educated) perception: In the Western Cape in SA, within my income group, more people know who the father of Inge Lotz is, than those who know who the minister of Education is. And I believe more than 80% of those will have a strong opinnion on who they think killed Inge. And I believe 80% of those will not differ in who they believe killed Inge.

And in the same token, I think the number of people who think Fred is innocent is decreasing by the day - just because he was so adament that he was innocent, and embarked on such an international roadshow (if I remember correctly, Dup, Fred, Louis, Alfons, and a number of other people were in the US with a little entourage from SA to film the whole procession on evidence fabrication for the local TV) - and for the last couple of months for all intents and purposes Fred did nothing to find the killer of his girfriend / previous wife to be, and the only one that is looking for the killer is Inge's parents.

Let's be honest. The issue about evidence fabrication was and still appear to be more important than finding the killer.

In Afrikaans we have a saying: "More is nog 'n dag". Tomorrow is another day.

Have a great weekend.

Regards

African
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Sat May 05, 2012 5:04 pm

Does it occur to anyone else that African and about 80% of 80% of the majority of people in his income group should do a little more to educate themselves?
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