Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Sun May 13, 2012 12:28 am

Hi Mike,

He is a retired detective who now runs a private investigations firm.

Regards
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Sun May 13, 2012 8:01 am

Truth, are you or your group aware of any tracks or traces leading to the balcony door which may indicate that it was used as an escape route?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Sun May 13, 2012 11:53 am

Hi Interesed2,

I do not know if you have any access to the evidence. In an affidavit by Supt. Kock, a possible blood smear on the curtain is mentioned. The photos I have of it is not very clear, but it apears to be on the OUTSIDE of the curtain. One of the two photos was clearly taken from the balcony side. My guess is that it was on the lining of the curtain, so it is possible that someone closed the curtain with a bloodied hand. It is mentioned that a sample of the possible smear was taken for analysis. Will see if I can find the results of the test.

It would be very difficult to close the curtains, close the safety gate (it is a folding type door with two sections that join in the middle) and then close the balcony door from the outside. You would then have to climb over the balcony wall and jump (it is quite high) into a garden below as there is not much to hold on for climbing other than an aluminium gutter pipe. From the garden you can leave via a gate that opens towards the road (with the fence) that we previously discussed or climb over the garden wall.

All of the above would have to happen on the side of the building that is much more visible than the front door side and there is a good chance of being seen from the parking area even if it was dark (car lights and building lighting). We do not know if the balcony door and safety gate was locked.

In summary, I think it is highly unlikely that someone would have chosen that route, but not impossible. After 16:00 the parking area side would be a bad choice to leave in such a visible and strange way, as many residents / students would be returning home and would be passing through the parking area.

On some of the photos, one can see that the balcony door was dusted for fingerprints, but no specific reference is made to it in the material we have at the moment.

Looking at it now, it is ironic that the incident took place in a flat that is so secure. Even today it is by far the best protected in the whole complex.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Sun May 13, 2012 1:55 pm

Truth, the inherent improbabilities in this case have long argued for themselves. They do not need your help.

So, we have a "possible" blood smear on a curtain leading out to the balcony... Why only "possible" blood? Did they do any tests to confirm, or DNA? Any chance that this is still available for analysis?

What do you mean by the "outside" of the curtain? Can we have a more accurate description? Is it on the side facing the interior, or on the side adjacent to the security gate?

Why would it have been necessary to open and close the curtains? What about a scenario where perpetrator pulls the curtain away from the security gate but not draw it along the railing? And why is closing a security gate and a balcony door such an intricate process?

This was a first floor apartment right? How much higher than other first floor apartments is this one? How challenging an exit would this have been for say, a young man, with an aluminium gutter to hold on to for support in what would have been a hurried escape? Sure it is improbable, but its not impossible. Other than dusting the balcony door for prints, were there any other traces on the outside of the apartment that could indicate that this was indeed a possible escape route?

I'm tired of making my point about visibility and probability of being seen etc. It was a fairly new complex right? And not all the owners had taken occupation of their units right?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Sun May 13, 2012 3:17 pm

Hi Interested2,

I can only tell you what I read in the affidavits - I was not there to see for myself. The affidavit state "possible blood smear" and according to the record a piece of the material was cut out to be analysed. I cannot find any results returned in the material we have, but I have been promised more. You are welcome to join us and look at the evidence yourself.

With outside I mean the side of the curtain that face the outside / touch the security gate.

I do not know why this escape route is so important to you, maybe you can enlighten me a bit (Are you possibly thinking about the owner of a Tazz? The wheelbrace would be the perfect murder weapon - we looked at one). Yes it is possible, but if I had and open front door that was relatively out of sight, I know which option I would pick. Taking your option certainly has a good chance of spoiling or leaving marks on your clothes as well. If you can explain why you think the person took this route, we can possibly come up with something to support it.

On the crime scene photos, everything look like it is neatly in place - Maybe you you will have an idea that can help to explain why the person found it necessary to neatly close the curtains and the security gate neatly when leaving. We are also working on the assumption that the security gate and doors to the balcony was unlocked then and we are not certain. I have recently heard that the keys was found in a kitchen drawer but still have to confirm that.

Other than the dusting of the door and the reference to the possible blood smear I am not aware of any other reference to this escape route. I doubt it was ever considered. I must admit that you may be onto something - I can see no logical reason for the blood (if it was indeed blood) being there.

I actually had a friend living there at the time and most apartments were occupied - The one next door to Inge was one of very few open ones. Any form of housing in Stellenbosch quickly gets filled.
Last edited by Truth on Sun May 13, 2012 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Sun May 13, 2012 3:30 pm

Hi Interested2,

If we follow your line of thinking, I guess you are thinking of someone that was not necessarily one of Inge's known friends? Any suggestion what could have provoked such anger in a person without an emotional link to her? Or is my assumption about your thinking incorrect?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Sun May 13, 2012 4:04 pm

Assumptions assumptions... the enemy of any investigation.

Can I leave it to you to point out the assumptions in the following statements:

Yes it is possible, but if I had and open front door that was relatively out of sight, I know which option I would pick


...why the person found it necessary to neatly close the curtains and the security gate neatly when leaving.


...what could have provoked such anger in a person without an emotional link


Granted, the first one requires some out-of-the-box thinking.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Sun May 13, 2012 4:52 pm

I guess we will never be able to get rid of at least some assumptions...

First one: I do not really see why someone would climb over a balcony on a first floor if there is a front door that was unlocked (at least later). Could someone have come later and discovered the body and possibly scared off the real killer?

Second one: I would not even bother to close the safety gate if I was leaving the murder I just committed but then some people are probably neater than what I am! Granted I could be wrong here.... Just thought about something - if the killer washed his/her hands, where does the blood on the curtain come from? Was it blood ??

Third one: I actually asked you for a bit of help here. If you have seen the photos, you must agree that there is more in this than simply killing someone. I have seen many murder victims, but to go this far the killer must have been very angry. Just wondered what could possibly motivate a person to do such a thing if it was not the usual love / rejection type of thing. If one could figure out that motive then you would get close to finding the killer I think.

I would really like to know what you think happened. You are very critical but you also make assumptions about what the person did ...... probably good ones if we think about the bed that was moved and a few other things, but unless you were there it is also assumptions.....
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Sun May 13, 2012 5:38 pm

I believe that you are now starting to think clearer Mister (safe assumption?)

Number one: You're almost there... What if the front door was not open at the time that a decision was made by someone on the escape route they were going to take...

Number two had two asumptions: a) How do you know that curtains were drawn open at all? It is possible to get in behind curtains without drawing them open. b) How does a person close a door "neatly"? It is either left open, or closed. Just by looking at a closed door you cannot say that it was closed "neatly". It could have been closed rather forcefully. Or someone else could have closed it...

Number three: There are no conclusions that can safely be drawn about the emotional state of mind of the perpetrator(s). The only thing you can safely say is that great force and violence was involved. We don't know if the perpetrator(s) was/were angry.

I still think you and your team have potential though: "If the killer washed his/her hands, where does the blood on the curtain come from?" Very good Mr Truth, very good indeed. Assuming it was blood of course.... (I don't mean to make you angry, but I can hardly resist pointing out.)
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Mon May 14, 2012 1:43 am

Hi Interested2,

I think we will have some interesting discussions still! A bit like cross questioning in court, which is good! I will try to help you where I can if you need info about the crime scene, but that is not where our focus lies.

So many people are looking at the crime scene that we have decided to take the road less traveled and look at things not directly related to the scene. You are actually very correct when you point out about all the assumptions and one can speculate about the crime scene for a very long time, but with the limited amount of evidence that is available, we struggled to substantiate any of our ideas eg. it is not even certain if it is a blood mark. Maybe your reasoning in this regard is better than ours.

By taking this route, we have discovered a few things that is coming together into a picture that we did not expect. There is still a few pieces of the puzzle missing, but the bits we have is not assumptions, but much more certain. It is not impossible that it can tie up with whatever you are thinking - it has occurred to us that someone might have found the body, not necessarily committed the deed and that would fit with your ideas.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Mon May 14, 2012 10:07 am

Hi Interested2,

I am a bit busy today. Having to earn a living is really interfering badly with this!

Do you mind sharing your ideas around what happened during the incident with us?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Mon May 14, 2012 11:07 am

I do not have any firm views on exactly what happened during the incident. I just think it cannot be excluded that more than one person was involved, and the group of possible suspects is wider than merely the victim's closest friends.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Mon May 14, 2012 11:12 am

Do we know if anything other than the remote control to the complex gate was missing from the apartment? I read something about a missing kitchen knife somewhere...

How solid is the evidence that the keys were found in the kitchen drawer?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Mon May 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Hey,

You had some pretty strong views yesterday about doors 'n things - share it or is it only assumptions? Saving it for the book maybe ?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby BrightYoungMind » Mon May 14, 2012 2:37 pm

Truth wrote:Hey,

You had some pretty strong views yesterday about doors 'n things - share it or is it only assumptions? Saving it for the book maybe ?


Ooooooooooooooooooh !!
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