Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Mon May 07, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi Interested2,

It certainly was possible for someone to hide under the bed. It has always been a question why the bed was moved away from the wall. There was an open suitcase that was pulled from under the bed, and on first appearances one would assume she removed some clothes from it, but it is still one of the unanswered questions.

BrandonDee - If you'd be willing to do a bit of translation for the sake of the overseas members, I will put up some of the relevant material from the court transcripts tomorrow. I am a bit short of time at the moment, but would like to keep the conversation going. For the purposes of this discussion I am only using the court transcripts and evidence from Fred's trial. We (I am not working alone) are however using very advanced techniques to analyse the data from scratch to see if it is possible to find leads where other methods have failed. The simple answer is - Yes it is possible. Just remember that it remains only leads until proven otherwise.

As for the conspiracy theories, it must be clear to you by now that we only consider facts wherever possible. Unfortunately I have to admit that there might be grounds for some of it, but not necessarily the ones you mention. I'd prefer not to discuss it at this stage, as it might not be relevant and also affect innocent people. Also - It will be impossible for anybody following this discussion to change the chain of events that happened.

Blue Bull - if you have some spare time, please also check the testimony of the policemen. I do not have the transcripts with me at the moment, but I seem to remember that the first policeman on the scene testified that he received the call between 22:55 and 23:00. Some of the police that arrived later testified that they were informed around 23:00. We need to check that as well. It is very difficult to figure out who to believe as we have two or maybe even three different stories here. I will try and put together an explanation about why this is so important soon.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby BrightYoungMind » Mon May 07, 2012 6:07 pm

Truth wrote: I do not have the transcripts with me at the moment, but I seem to remember that the first policeman on the scene testified that he received the call between 22:55 and 23:00.


You messin’ with us bro, or is your memory a bit fried tonite ?

For the record:

Captain September, first cop on the scene, under oath:

COURT: Kan u onthou ongeveer hoe laat het u hierdie oproep gekry en hoe laat is u uit na die toneel toe?

Roughly what time did you get the call and when did you arrive ?

WITNESS: Dit was om en by – ek praat onder korreksie – maar hier by – ons het tienuur aan diens geboek, so halfelf se kant.

Speaking under correction here – we got the call at 10 o’clock – so about half past.

Captain September therefore not only knew about Inge's death around 20 minutes before Marius Botha made his call, but somehow arrived about the same time as Christo Pretorius (who had yet to find the body) and about ten minutes before Andre Beelders called the police.

Nice to have cleared that one up !
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Pat » Mon May 07, 2012 6:50 pm

brandondee wrote:Pat, for your benefit, the most recnent information revealed to the Lotz family has led them to enquire about some evidence which has disappeared during the investigation, this includes the magazine that was on Inge's lap, and the bloodied towel in the bathroom. I am intrigued about the magazine (Shape), which was open, apparently, on a page featuring one of the Miss South Africa 2005 finalists, one of which were a friend of Inge's.


Captain Renault wrote:I'm shocked - Shocked! - to find that evidence is getting lost in here.


Captain Renault may have been shocked to find that evidence was getting lost in Casablanca, but it doesn't shock Pat to learn that evidence has been lost in Cape Town. Actually, it seems logical that both sides of the coin exist. Fabricate evidence to implicate Fred, lose evidence that might clear him and implicate somebody else.

But that is disturbing news. When was the loss discovered? How was it discovered? I am a fingerprint expert, not a crime scene reconstructionist nor a psychological profiler. Still, it would seem to me from having seen a couple of photographs of the way Inge's body lay that the scene was staged. If that is true, then the killer would have necessarily had to have handled the magazine and touched the pages to which it was opened. Glossy paper is a particularly good surface for fingerprints, especially if the killer had some blood or body fluids on his hands after having committed the murder and positioned the body prior to placing the magazine. Was no effort made to fingerprint the magazine? You are all talking a little over my head here, as I am reading details about which I was unaware and names that I cannot remember hearing before. But consider the bloody towel, too. If the killer used it to wipe the blood from his hands and if he rubbed hard, it seems to me there would be a DNA mixture on the towel, with the stronger profile being Inge's from the blood and the weaker profile being the killer's from having rubbed his hands hard to wipe the blood off. I am no DNA expert, but that seems logical, does it not?

So what you are tellilng me is that two crucial pieces of evidence that may have very likely identified the killer were lost while the investigators were busy doing a sloppy job of fabricating evidence against an innocent man. Is that about it?
The views presented in this post are those of the author only. They do not necessarily represent the views of DoD or any of its components.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Tue May 08, 2012 12:59 am

Hi BYM,

Not messin with ya Bro.... just out of town and we also share the stuff, so I do not have everything with me. I probably saw it in an affidavit somewhere - will see if I can find it. Obviously September was very wrong in court. Would you maybe care to put up the transcript from Pretorius - especially the re-examination part. Think it starts at about page 650.

Pat, Two things, I saw pictures of the towel with pieces cut out for analysis, but that would obviously be of the bloodied parts and not where the attacker touched it. So if that is found it is probably not worth much. Also what makes you believe that the body was staged? Judging by the blood spatter patterns it seems unlikely, but the magazine could have been placed on the body...

Have to run....
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Pat » Tue May 08, 2012 3:48 am

Truth wrote:Pat, Two things, I saw pictures of the towel with pieces cut out for analysis, but that would obviously be of the bloodied parts and not where the attacker touched it. So if that is found it is probably not worth much. Also what makes you believe that the body was staged? Judging by the blood spatter patterns it seems unlikely, but the magazine could have been placed on the body...


Okay, I'm commenting a little out of my league here, as I expressed in the last post. I'm a fingerprint expert, not a DNA expert or a crime scene reconstructionist.

So, having got the caveat out of the way, first, cutting out a piece of bloody towel to test the blood for Inge's DNA seems like a no-brainer. But to throw the rest of the towel away, or even just simply misplace it or lose it, seems unforgivable.

Second, the photo I saw shows a young woman reclining on the sofa as if she drifted off to sleep reading a magazine while watching TV. That is, if you can overlook the blood and vicious wounds. In my imagination, I find it utterly inconceivable that she just lay there in that position and took the beating. Ergo, there must have been some resistance or struggle, although maybe very short in duration before she lost consciousness. So I conclude that the killer finished his vile deed and repositioned the body with the magazine as it appears in the photo. Please tell me if there is a falacy in my reasoning.
The views presented in this post are those of the author only. They do not necessarily represent the views of DoD or any of its components.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Tue May 08, 2012 6:01 am

Hi Pat,

It is difficult to be certain. It looks like she might have been asleep - but one could argue that there might have been a small amount of resistance as her one hand were injured badly during the attack. My feeling is that she was asleep when attacked. Even if she knew the attacker, one would expect her to get at least a little more upright when the person entered the room/apartment.

The magazine is something else. There were some blood spatters on the magazine, which means it was open when she was attacked, so she was probably reading it. We know she (not someone else) bought it earlier. What is interesting is that one of the role players had extensive communication with the person in the magazine between the estimated time of the incident and the discovery of the body. Probably just coincidence, but it was a rather strange feeling when I noticed it.

And yes, I also cannot understand that evidence can be lost like this. But I recall that there were a number of towels in the apartment - are we certain that the one with the blood on is totally lost? It was certainly processed to a degree .....
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby brandondee » Tue May 08, 2012 2:39 pm

Good evening gentlemen,

So a couple of interesting comments posted over the last day or two.

Firstly, Truth, your observation with regards to the specific time lapse as to when Marius contacted Christo and the crime being reported is interesting. In my mind, 13 minutes does seem very little if one takes into consideration all the activities that had to be completed during this time. While not entirely impossible, it had to be done with unusual sense of urgency... consider how long the average person would wait for a knock on the door to be answered before knocking again, possibly repeating this by a knock on the window, and a call out of a name before trying to physically open the door.

With regards to the magazine, from what I recall there was very little blood found on the magazine itself, especially considering the general amount of blood splatter - by all indications, there should have been a whole lot more considering the positioning of the magazine and angle of attack. Thus, the magazine was appeared to have been placed on her lap after the deed, quite possibly having been on the coffee table during the time of the attack (and thus explains the few blood drops which may have fallen on it as part of the spatter). The significance of the magazine (and specific page it was on) does intrigue me. Assuming she was asleep when the attack occurred, it would be very unlikely that she did not close the magazine and place it next to her before taking a nap. You have to be pretty tired to fall asleep with a magazine open on your lap on an article in which an acquaintence (friend) of yours appear.

Secondly, I've also wondered about the bloodied towel that was used to clean the murder weapon. If the murder was premeditated, to such fine detail that we are still scratching our heads years later (and difficult to pinpoint by alibi, cellphone records, etc.), why on earth would you as the murderer leave something so obvious lying around? It's almost a clumsy mistake (if indeed it was that), in comparison with the rest of the murder which has yielded no evidence. Nothing found in the TV/living room, no prints, no murder weapon, no sign of entry, no eye-witnesses, no motive... but there in the floor, you leave a bloodied towel that you used to clean your murder weapon. You have otherwise taken care of your bloodied clothes, washed your hands, washed the basin of any blood but conveniently forget the towel as you leave? Surely, due to the very texture of a towel, it will easily gather residue - dust, hair, etc. when wiped against the weapon and skin to dry your hands/arms?

Also, to the earlier point regarding the possibility of one weapon being used rather than two due to the assumption that there would have been blood trails leading to the kitchen to fetch the knife - why was there no trails to the bathroom? It is almost inconceivable that you could carry out that amount of blows wih the blood spatter generated and not get a fair amount of blood on yourself or your shoes in the process. One of the reports indicated that it was likely that the killer was positioned next to her which explained the lack of blood spill in the position where the killer may have been standing. Is it possible that there was more time spent in the unit, allowing a thorough clean of the trace?

I also find it fairly inconceivable that the killer may have hidden under the bed for a specific amount of time, waiting for the right moment to 'strike'. There'd be no guarantee that she'd make herself comfortable, or fall asleep on that particular afternoon and if this was planned, the killer could have been bored out of his skull waiting to do the deed, it doesn't tie up with the urgency with which the events appear to have played out.

Lastly, while I'm not familiar with the psychology or trends in this regard, I ask myself the question - if the murder was due to a love triangle and motivated by jealousy, who might be the potential victim in such a scenario? If A + B are dating/in love/has a romantic relationship, but C also has a romantic interest in A, to the extent that the jealousy drives C to murder, would C be driven to murder A, or B?

Surely, C would want to eliminate the threat, being B.

if A was Inge Lotz, why was she murdered?

Of course, this picture changes entirely if Inge, was in actual fact B.

Till next time :)
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby brandondee » Tue May 08, 2012 2:55 pm

Sorry, just to add to/clarify my last comment, if Inge was B in a game in which D and E were dating. :)
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Interested2 » Tue May 08, 2012 4:41 pm

What if the murder wasn't planned? What if the perpetrator was a robber interrupted by her entry. Could such a person have hidden under the bed? Such a person is also the type that's only interested in getting themselves and their weapon(s) clean... and leave towel, not realising its significance.

What do we know about possible escape routes? Was the front door the only option?
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Wed May 09, 2012 1:56 am

Hi Brandon,

We must make a plan for you to see the real evidence from the court case. I am surprised at how many (80%??) of people form very strong opinions and will defend it aggressively without ever having seen anything other than reports in the media or Altbeker's book. I am not keen on giving up my pseudonym just yet, but I am certain we can make a plan (I have many theories that need review so imagine all the beer I'll have to buy if people get to know me!).

For fun, let's take your ABC and work on it. If we read http://www.utexas.edu/features/2005/murder/index.html it becomes interesting. A dates B and C is in love with A (for a long time) and hopes that one day things will work out. A now has sex with B (or is perceived to). This is the ultimate and final rejection of C and then there is trouble in paradise.

You seem to also find the timing issue interesting. It is actually 11 minutes and not 13. I know the area very well and Christo must have been in an ungodly rush. His court testimony certainly does not support this rush but yes, it might just be possible. We can pull it apart later.

The court and most commentators looked at the events after Fred and Marius arrived at the Lotz residence in depth and there were some questions that were never answered and are unlikely to be, as it is only the testimony from a few people who were deeply shocked at that stage. If we now look at the events that preceded those at the Lotz residence by about an hour, a few other questions arise.

The first is why Christo was told that they (who are they?) were looking for Inge since 15:00 that afternoon? We cannot find any record of Juanita (Inge's mother), Fred or Marius trying to contact Inge before 20:11 that evening when Fred SMS'd her. Why would anyone bother to say this and what is the significance of this?

Secondly there is the suicide / murder issue which bothered the judge as well.

Thirdly, and this is why I am so concerned about by the timing issue, if we look at Exhibit Y (the cell phone records of Botha) there is an anomaly around the 22:46 call that simply needs to be cleared up. I am adding a few explanatory things from the court transcript, but the following calls might be of interest:

1. Fred leaves the apartment he shares with Botha after a call to Juanita at 22:22
2. Marius calls Christo Pretorius at 22:23 and speaks for 1 minute and 50 seconds
3. Marius calls Juanita at 22:26 and speaks for 1 minute and 58 seconds.
4. At 22:36 Christo Pretorius calls Marius. It lasts 79 seconds.
5. At 22:41 Marius makes a call to Juanita lasting 16 seconds. Tower records indicate that he is moving, most likely in a vehicle.
6. At 22:42 Fred calls Marius. According to the court transcript, he tells Fred that he is on his way to the shop. Call length is 45 seconds.
7. At 22:44 Fred calls Marius again. Marius tells Fred that he has bad news and that Fred must return to the Lotz residence. Call length is 22 seconds.
8. At 22:46 Marius calls Christo and speaks for 96 seconds
9. At 22:49 Juanita calls Marius and he tells her that he has bad news. Call length 35 seconds.
10. At 23:53 Christo calls Marius and speaks for 108 seconds

As you can see, it is critical that the correct timing of events is determined. Most likely the people on the scene were so disturbed by what they found that they simply could not remember and unfortunately we do not have all the records we need, so this is likely to remain another unanswered question I guess.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby BrightYoungMind » Wed May 09, 2012 3:26 am

Truth wrote: I know the area very well and Christo must have been in an ungodly rush.


The only one in an ‘ungodly rush’ is you dude. You’re talking crap with your wild speculation, mistakes and omissions. You’re turning a family tragedy into your own egotistical pissing contest. Slow down man, check your facts, and then check them again before you post. Show some respect for Inge’s parents who might be reading this. Don’t think you’re the first oke to have constructed a timeline. There have been plenty of half-baked attempts but only one that is entirely accurate. That one demonstrates conclusively who was where and at what time and it’s never been made public. Go figure.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Wed May 09, 2012 3:33 am

OK BYM,

Feel free to rip my speculation apart..... and please publish the only correct timeline so that we can stop wondering.

Thanks

T
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby Truth » Wed May 09, 2012 3:39 am

PS The Lotz family do not have to read this. Out of respect, they have been informed of this and some other things quite a while ago. Maybe decent discussion and language will help them find closure....

Regards
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby African » Wed May 09, 2012 4:47 am

?????
Last edited by African on Wed May 09, 2012 5:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Evidence Fabrication in South Africa

Postby BrightYoungMind » Wed May 09, 2012 4:48 am

Truth wrote:PS The Lotz family do not have to read this. Out of respect, they have been informed of this and some other things quite a while ago. Maybe decent discussion and language will help them find closure....

Regards



Crash and burn dude, crash and burn. You just detroyed any credibility you had left. Another parasite bites the dust.
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